At a recent Legal Marketing Italia seminar, the question arose as to why a company’s web site doesn’t rank well, even for the company’s name. In Italy, the most common problem encountered with websites is the use of Macromedia / Adobe Flash to develop most or all of a company’s website. This case was no exception.
Update: Google has announced improved crawling support for Flash sites. Our related article Why Flash is still bad for SEO and the Web explains that nothing has changed – the best websites should still avoid Flash. (2 July 2008)
Italy has a strong history of excellence in visual communication, including graphic design. Indeed, the very successful New York City subway signage was designed by an Italian. Many Italian graphic designers have worked on web sites, adopting Flash as their preferred technology when moving from the printed media to the web. Flash allows “pixel perfect” control over web design, including font specification.
Unfortunately, Flash technology is a poor choice for most commercial web sites. A proprietary technology, Flash breaks most web standards and conventions. While Flash sites are generally beautiful to look at, the fail to meet a number of minimum criteria for business-oriented websites.
1. Information embedded in Flash is often invisible to search engines.
Most Internet navigators begin a web session with a search engine. Even when they know a domain name, they start with Google or a similar search engine. With all the possible confusion of .com, .net, .eu, it’s better to trust Google to find the “right choice”. As search engines are the gatekeepers to the Internet, it is imperative that companies maximize their natural visibility in search engines.
Search engines work by scanning information on the web, processing it, and retrieving the best match for each user query. Search engines are fine-tuned to process text, semantically wrapped in tags. The markup in hypertext markup language is our specification of a document title, headings, paragraphs and links – structural meaning which helps search engines place appropriate importance on each text element.
Information hidden in graphics formats, such as Flash, is difficult, if not impossible, to find and process. While search engines such as Google try their best to extract links and textual content buried in Flash objects, the process is far from perfect. Sites constructed completely in Flash often offer very little textual information – consequently what information a search engine does find ranks poorly. Even sites partially constructed using Flash often “hide” their internal site links using Flash based site navigation.
Search engine optimization practitioners can help companies with Flash based web sites overcome Flash limitations without violating search engine guidelines.
2. Website reporting on Flash navigation is problematic and cumbersome.
Web Analytics systems help marketing professionals evaluate website visitor behavior in and around a website, providing actionable information valuable in improving a website’s business performance.
Basic Web Analytics reporting tells marketers where their visitors came from, the pages visited and where in a site visitors abandon a site. One type of web Analytics reporting uses web server based data – log files which track every page, image and download served to site visitors. A second type of reporting system relies on JavaScript tags that need to be inserted in every site page and on every downloadable object. While both types of web Analytics systems have advantages and disadvantages, Flash based websites present real problems for both types of Web Analytics reporting tools.
Web server log based systems are able to track when a Flash object, typically a swf file, is viewed. They are not able to track navigation within a Flash object – so if a site is composed of one Flash object which contains multiple site sections, the Web Analytics system will see a swf download, but will have no idea which parts of the site a visitor viewed nor where the visitor abandoned the site.
JavaScript tag based solutions, such as Google Analytics, rely on web developers inserting a small piece of JavaScript code in each page, usually in the site header or footer. Most sites have a single shared header and footer meaning that the code just needs to be put in one file for an entire site. A basic installation then takes less than 30 minutes from account setup and configuration to page tagging.
As all or most of the navigation in a Flash based site occurs within the Flash object, page tagging solutions require that each user action (such as clicking on a button to view different “content”) be tagged with an ActionScript call to the Web Analytics JavaScript code, providing a pseudo page name which then appears as a virtual page in Web Analytics reports. While this sounds complicated, the Google Analytics on-line help system provides a good example.
In the real world, this approach breaks down very quickly. Web Analytics tagging is often an after thought. Flash ActionScript coding adds extra implementation cost and complexity. Flash designer(s) are often unfamiliar with Web Analytics requirements and thus don’t consider Flash events tagging requirements during site design. Implemented tag verification is a tedious process as it requires waiting for data to appear in the reporting system – hours or days later. Flash does not provide referrer information, making it very difficult to track navigation paths.
3. Flash breaks web usability standards.
Flash sites might look great, but they start to fall apart when visitors try to use them. Consider a site for a professional services company. The site contains information about the company, its services, case studies and contact information. It is clear that the company invested a lot of time in planning and developing their web site. The site deserves an excellent rating for content and appearance.
- While navigating through the site, try to use the browser back button. Unfortunately, it is disabled.
- Try highlighting contact information to paste into your contact manger, such as Thunderbird or Outlook – you cannot.
- Try increasing the font size to make the text more readable (Firefox: Ctrl +; IE 7: “View -> Text Size”. You cannot.
- Try bookmarking a page within the site (or deep linking to a page from an external site). You cannot. Keep in mind that deep linking, the ability to link to a specific page in a site, affects a site’s visibility in search engines and the overall web ecosystem.
Ouch! These are all problems that could be avoided by using standard html and css instead of Flash. Sites that have these types of problems usually also have problems with web accessibility.
There are (too) many examples of Flash designed sites which present the same problems:
- Syneo. A context design consultancy.
- Exile Solutions. Online Professional Services.
- Studiodynamis. Audiovisual Communication for the Fashion Sector
4. Lack of consistent cross platform support.
One of the keystones of the web is that a website should work in any browser on any computer – it is openness and standardization which has made the Internet universal. Flash breaks the basic tenets of web design. While most Internet users have Flash installed – they don’t necessarily have the right version installed. Indeed version 8 wasn’t even released for the Linux platform, locking those users out of sites developed for Flash 8 and 9 (Flash 9 for Linux has finally been released, months after the Windows version).
Microsoft’s Silverlight is even worse. Microsoft only supports Windows and the Mac. Linux users are told that Microsoft partner Novell is working on Moonlight, but development is way behind the Windows version, resulting a broken website here, a broken site there…. Don’t break the web folks. (added 2009-03-23)
Mobile device users, such as Apple’s iPhone, will surely have noticed that Flash websites cannot be navigated on the iPhone… website developers can and should avoid this problem at the source. (added 2009-03-23)
5. Code embedding Flash objects doesn’t pass w3c validation.
The World Wide Web Consortium, the primary web standards organization, provides a free tool to ensure a page’s html is syntactically correct. While search engines and web browsers do tolerate bad html code, a business oriented site usually wants to minimize the risk that an improperly coded page won’t render correctly or will be rejected by a search engine’s parser. Validation of pages removes this risk.
Unfortunately, standard Flash object embedding in the current html version, xhtml, doesn’t validate correctly. Fortunately, the fine folks at alistapart have documented a solution.
6. Some users disable Flash to avoid flash based advertising.
Savvier web users have learned to disable Flash in web pages to avoid animated advertising and / or to improve page-loading times on dial-up connections. Regardless of the reason, a disabled Flash website looks much like this:
Another reason to stick with html and css.
7. Website updates continually require Flash skills
One characteristic better performing websites share in common is fresh content – they are continually updated to reflect the latest company news and industry trends. Pure Flash and Flash navigation sites constantly need to use a Flash designer every time new content needs to be integrated into the existing site. If this skill-set doesn’t exit in-house, site maintenance becomes needlessly complicated.
8. Flash breaks Search Engine Site Previews
Some search engines provide a site preview option next to search results. The preview allows a user to get a clearer idea of what to expect in the target site before actually visiting it, speeding up the process of arriving at the right result. Ask.com launched their Binoculars feature in 2004. Microsoft offered MSN Search Preview at one point, reintroducing this as Bing’s Document Preview.
In their webmaster guidelines, Bing writes
Many website designers use Flash and Silverlight-based animations to display their content. Quite often these websites don’t offer any readable meta data text, such as titles and descriptions, in the HTML source code for the search engine bot to crawl. In these cases, it can be very hard for the search engine to derive a useful website description needed to populate the result caption. The Bing team found that websites that used Flash were responsible for 21 percent of all empty caption descriptions for queries in their index. … When titles and/or meta descriptions don’t exist on an HTML page, at runtime Bing creates a best-effort caption from relevant external sources of reliable information to populate the caption with meaningful data for the searcher.
Translation: if you must shoot yourself in the foot with Flash / Silverlight, at least specify a html title and meta description to make the best of a bad situation.
So we’ve got a Flash based website. What now?
There are several strategies available for mitigating problems inherent in Flash usage. While a few have already been noted above, each situation presents its own unique issues which need to be balanced based on business requirements and website development resources. In all fairness, there are a few cases where judicious use of Flash may be appropriate, such as sites in the entertainment market that serve to support an existing brand.
Search engine optimization and Web Analytics professionals can evaluate specific site issues and provide a range of short and medium term options.
Updated 2009-06-19 with information on Bing.
Similar Posts:
- Flash is still a problem for SEO (and the web) despite Google announcement
- Web Analytics Embedded JavaScript Page Tracking Code: Place at the top or bottom of the page?
- Audio & Video Multimedia Search Engine Optimization
- Google Crawling and Execution of JavaScript: where are we at today?
- Simon Says… or is it Google Says?
Registration is now open for the next SEO Course and Google Analytics Course in Milan. Don’t miss the opportunity!
By Bill Pitts 2009-04-17 - 17:56:28
Hi,
I was pleased to find this blog as I needed some concise reasons why Flash can be problematic. Thank you for this analysis of the problem.
I use an eight year old Macintosh G4 (can’t afford to upgrade now!) running OSX and I access the Internet with a cable modem, yet Flash sites are, for the most part, agonizingly slow to load. I tend to avoid them.
I assume my situation could fall under #6 above, eh?
Thanks again,
Bill
By Raul Riera 2009-07-14 - 20:40:54
nonsense,
point 1 : There are SEO methods to use inside flash, or something like swfObject can help you here.
point 2 : Google Analytics can be used with Flash, you can fire the events within the flash itself and relay on deep liking methods to achive ALL report data.
point 3 : again, deep linking libraries exits (for a long while)
point 4 : WOW, you are pulling that off? Flash is more cross platform than HTML and CSS, what are you talking about?
point 5 : swfObject bypasses this too
point 6 : Some disable cookies, or javascript.. do you avoid those too?
point 7 : nope, CMS can work with Flash, actionscript is a very powerful language
point 8 : You are right here
By Pmartineau 2012-01-10 - 0:06:32
point 4 : I use linux on my personal computer and it is always a pain when a website start using a version of flash that is not available yet for linux users.
By Joost 2009-07-15 - 6:55:58
Great article. Luckily more and more designers and clients realize that Flash was never really intended to create a whole site with.
Modern web sites are built in separate layers: content (html) on the bottom, style (css) and behaviour (js) on top. Take of the top layer, the rest is still accessible. I fail to see how to this with Flash.
For example Flash doesn’t work on my crappy mobile phone, neither does CSS (at least not very well) or JavaScript, but I can still access the content, as long as it’s a proper html site.
Not sure, but how do screenreaders, etc. work with Flash content?
By Doug S. 2009-07-18 - 20:32:23
If you embed your sites with SWFObject 2.1 they validate and are standards compliant. It’s the method recommended by the W3C for Flash content.
They also provide alternate content should Flash be disabled or unavailable.
Of course, you also forget why Flash can be good for a site. Right now you have to use a plugin to play video. Flash is king because it has the widest penetration and best support.
Using some Flash, when appropriate, is a good thing. Using a lot of Flash isn’t.
By Bill Pitts 2009-07-19 - 19:34:20
After reading the above posts, I have to admit that I am (not surprisingly) largely ignorant of HTML (reference the above comment about a “proper HTML site”) and Flash. Can you guys recommend websites where I can further my education of these subjects?
Thanks!
By Del C. 2009-07-22 - 21:06:57
This discussion reminds me of people arguing over which car to buy or what OS is the best. I feel the main article here is very heavily biased in favour of non-flash sites. Generally people support what they know and belittle what they are not familiar with.
There is a video course available on lynda.com about how to make a pure flash site much more search engine friendly using swfobject etc. You need to subscribe to access it though 25.00 per month- but there are hundreds of other great video courses on all other graphic/media software that you will be grateful for. That argument does not hold up anymore. The instructor on the video is from Adobe by the way who sell Flash CS4 and Flash Player and HTML Dreamweaver.
I also find that Yahoo gives much better search results for pure flash sites and others than Google does. What does that say about Google? Google is over rated!
I would say for most sites that a hybrid site is probably best. However, more and more people including myself are doing a lot more browsing on mobile phones and ipods. As far as I know iphones and Blackberries and several others are not supported with FLash yet so that is very annoying as Flash is used for a lot of audio and video on the web not to mention Flash banners and whole sites!
By Brian 2009-07-23 - 15:05:45
Most of these issues have been long sorted now. people that don’t know enough about flash should not blog about it. Most of your points are false, except number 8.
I do agree though, Use flash for the right kind of website, which in my eyes could be anything, as long as you use your imagination and good actionscript techniques.
FLASH IS KING !!!
By icetrix 2009-08-06 - 9:41:23
True true… we have JQuery now for archieving great effects.
By Brian 2009-08-06 - 10:53:07
Yeah JQuery is wicked..
By Janine 2009-09-24 - 8:33:34
I read this article and as a flash developer and artist, I found it rather funny. Thinking this article must written at least a year ago, I was shocked, when I looked at the date.
Sorry, but it seems you didn’t spent much time in research. I agree totally with Raul Riera. Especially the point about Flash and CMS, as I do Flash CMS in regular bases.
Hope, you will open up your eyes and do better research next time!
Greetings!
By Pallin 2009-09-29 - 18:23:53
Flash appears to be a fairly new tool for web graphics with a huge potential for creativity.
New programs will go through a phase of growing pains where problems crop up that did not show their ugly heads during the original testing phases.
I will keep an open mind about Flash and watch to see how it developes through these growing pains.
By Maros 2009-10-03 - 2:10:37
looks like you are asking for troubles with your weird comments on one of the most powerful mediums in the history of Internet as such.
Why dont you keep your opinion balanced by providing points on how great Flash is by allowing developers/designers express their creativity in an unlimited manner. Flash takes advantage of Action Script, the latest version ranks among the most sophisticated languages ever made.. How dare you compare it with jquery, a rubbish library of snippets that dont follow any standards. I got a headache just by looking at those sad coding patterns… Seriously, you must have been asleep for the last few years or perhaps you are blind to the reality.
All of your points have no validity.
Deep linking, bookmarking – excuse me ? please please keep reading before provoking other people.
updating Flash sites require flash skills – I am ready to pull the trigger, dude! is this a joke ? if not, dont attempt any more, it is sad !
I am really disgusted by your ignorant attitude and attempt to confuse people and/or discourage them from learning the most exciting media-based software package. It is not on !
By Brian 2009-10-03 - 5:59:15
It was such a waste of my time reading such a false post.
Please look at http://www.thefwa.com just to mention one..
That’s why you should use flash !! FOR ALL YOUR PROJECTS !!!! – Just kidding for most of them !!
Bring on HTML 5 which will only be fully valid in like 20 years or so… By that time we will have ACTIONSCRIPT 9.2 making the much anticipated HTML5 , well just another boring old language…
Yes I agree, blogs (and sometimes not even always) in HTML,
Then make the web a FUN, INTERESTING, INTERACTIVE, AVAILABLE ON THE DESKTOP (online or offline) GREAT LOOKING FLASH EXPERIENCES.
ROCK ON FLASH – ALL THE TIME !
By Maros 2009-10-03 - 11:01:03
Brian,
a good example of a flash site employing the deep-linking mechanism is http://group94.com/
check out their artwork, it`ll get you high, really high. Impossible made possible. everyone should look at that first, before making silly statements.
Maros
By Ringo Moss 2009-11-26 - 15:47:43
Hey there,
Just to clarify as a quick note to the above drivel.
+ All of the points above are completely innaccurate, fallacious and poorly researched.
+ It is perfectly possible to achieve all of the things above in flash if you use experienced and proffessional flash developers.
+ Sometimes the scope of a brief will demand that usability isn\’t the most paramount feature of a site – when some of the most beautiful and boundary breaking sites in the world make the majority of people stop and go WOW!! Usability isn\’t going to be the main premice of the site.
If you want to see what can be done in flash, including live, useability rich 3d navigation environments, CMS and online shops built in flash, and desktop applications – pop on over to http://www.nervmedia.com
Cheery bye,
Ringo
By Sean 2009-11-26 - 18:36:42
@Ringo, thanks for the diplomatic comment, but right now if I go to your site and select any of the content areas, e.g. 02 what we do, the content changes but the URL doesn’t.
The need for unique URL’s, often missing in Flash sites, is one of the “drivel” points mentioned above… Q.E.D. and Caveat emptor.
By John Lennon 2009-12-01 - 17:10:11
Sean, you just don’t have a clue! Understand flash don’t fear it!
You have made comments which are just not valid anymore (well apart from 8). In the coming years the internet is going to get faster for everyone! Broadband is already changing the way we use the internet, people want to be entertained now, flash helps designers and developers achieve this, you are going to need to adapt to be able to swim otherwise my brother you are going to sink and fast. Peace be with you! And please research!
By Mark 2009-12-09 - 8:54:52
@everyone claiming that the points of this article are invalid
While the problems listed in the article can be worked around, that takes a lot of extra development effort. In simple HTML, you don’t have to worry about any of these issues.
Also, it is impossible to fully resolve problems 3, 4, and 6, even if you have infinite Flash expertise available. Here’s some specific support of these points.
3: Many browser features rely on HTML and must be manually implemented in Flash. In effect, if you want the same functionality, you pretty much have to re-implement half of every browser ever. Also, Flash has the annoying habit of silently absorbing keyboard shortcuts, further crippling standard browser functionality.
4: Flash is currently available on Windows, Mac, Linux, and Solaris. HTML, CSS, and JavaScript are available (via Firefox) on at least Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, and BSD. There are also several mobile browsers that support HTML, such as Fennec, Opera-mini, the built-in browsers on Android, the iPhone, the Blackberry, video game consoles, etc. There are even command-line-based browsers with HTML support! Also, Flash only works on the few processor architectures that are most common; HTML-supporting browsers have been compiled for virtually any platform you can imagine.
6: Sure, users might also disable JavaScript and cookies, but their much more likely to be without Flash, given the relative cross-platform support of each.
Finally, this article doesn’t seem to be about completely getting rid of Flash, but rather about graceful degradation of the browsing experience as the browser loses features.
Here’s a good read on making sites still work even when certain browser features such as Flash are disabled.
http://webtips.dan.info/graceful.html
By Christian 2010-01-08 - 14:43:53
Have a look at this: http://blog.flashcmsframework.com/category/fleb-framework/
I’ve created a full flash website framework which has highest priority on SEO + usability.
By Neo Cambell 2010-03-13 - 3:51:07
Thanks for sharing these valuable information.
Neo
By Michael Minor 2010-04-21 - 22:09:09
I’ve been doing websites for 12 years. Flash, CSS, etc. This article is written with one purpose, to sell the specific services of the author.
The “Issues” that take a lot of “extra” development in fact shouldn’t take extra development if you hire a competent Flash developer.
Only points #6 & #8 are actually valid. But work arounds exist for both.
The article is extremely uneducated.
By Maros Takac 2010-04-22 - 16:24:46
Michael Minor, thank you for a great comment. I comletely agree with you. the best thing we can do is to ignore those parasites and get on with our creative work. It is very clear that they feel threathened by superior capabilities of Flash and they realize that the era of coding sites in those nasty Unix-like command lines is over. They also realize that Flash is the only environment allowing ANYONE WITH even weak technical skills to develop a pretty good website. That is the power of Flash that has been “terrorizing” those birocratic pigs and no We wont give the best tool up on account of Jquery or HTML5. No, I`ll make every effor to protect this great God`s gift to developers.
By Luke 2010-06-11 - 22:53:55
It seems a lot of flash devlopers have shot you down for this article, even though I noticed some of the points are false, I do agree the use of flash for an entire site in most cases is the wrong decision.
If you take a well made flash website and a well made (X)HTML website, when it comes to SEO, the (X)HTML website will always come up on top.
Now to argue some of the comments. HTML5 is progressing faster than a lot of people think, Safari, Firefox, Opera and Chrome have already implemented many of it’s technologies, and the new coming IE 9 is cramming in all the HTML 5 it can, so I think it will standardise a lot, and i mean a lot, earlier than 20 years.
Now someone above said what if Javascript is disabled? Well most developers follow the rule to not let Javascript get in the way with accessibility, so thats no problem, now if you Flash developers used the almighty swfObject and Javascript is disabled, then you have nothing!
To the person who said jQuery is just a bunch of code snippets that follow no standards, well it follows more than flash does.
I know a lot of developers in flash and they are completely oblivious to (X)HTML, CSS and Javascript, they have no idea of it’s capabilities, the combination of the three allows you to do so much, Flash is not an open standard, it’s dying. Apple are adament about rejecting flash, the iPad’s lack of support was a sign of that, and i’m pretty sure others in the mobile market will follow.
To the last comment: Allowing anybody to build a website can be dangerous don’t you think? The people with weak technical skills will have absent knowlegde on accessibility, SEO, etc, these are just as, or even more important than it’s visual appeal, which to me is the ONLY strong point about flash, which some people don’t like, especially when it comes to sound and sub scrolling content for example.
1 more point, Flash is expensive, HTML, CSS, JS and any other scripting language can be done in NotePad.
I think what i’m trying to say is; great article.
By Maros 2010-06-12 - 2:02:40
HTML, CSS, JS and any other scripting language can be done in NotePad – > What sort of company are you running ? I guess not very succesful if you force your developers into using notepad for professional development. I wonder how you`d cope with 10 000 lines of code in that kind of environment.
Now, let`s set you right. Flash is expensive… can be argued.. for who ? you ? sure but who cares ? do you think 600 pounds is a lot of money for a company that makes milions ? think about it for a while…
Apple is not supporting Flash and what shall i do now ? ditch all my actionscript skills and code in Javascript ? why would you force everyone to do what you think is right ? you sound selfish and a bit manipulated by what Steve Jobs has been drilling into your head through media.. well, guess what ? Every big manafacturer has annouced full support for Flash in the future and the next version of Android will be supporting Flash natively giving developers a choice to make applications in your notepad or Flex/Air/Flash environment!
In regards to Jquery, I use it on a daily basis. It is just a framework, nothign else, nothign more. A serious programmer cant compare those two together. besides, after 10 years, we can re-create some of Flash 5 effects ! bravo ! that is so innovating and it only takes 3 technologies instead of one
) why not 20 or 30 ? the more the better, eh ?
now, more to the point, Flash is not dying and you`ll be seeing more of it, I am afraid, whether you like it or not, it has transformed the web and influenced all the standards currently in place. everything that is coming out ( CSS3, HTML5 ) only aims to DUPLICATE what was introduced by Flash -> how many years ago ??.
Flash is proprietary -> thank God ! At least I know what I am paying for and it gets updated 50 x faster than HTML ( every 10 years ? ) which does not work consistently across browsers anyway – right ?
Regarding IE9, hm… IE 6 holds over 16 % of the browser market, IE8 with not support for HTML5 is growing rapidly and most importantly it is not recommended by W3C, it is simply a specification… big companies wont take any risks which is why it might take up to 10 years to see some improvement – believe me – > IE 6 is still powerful even after 9 years. That enables Adobe to make HTML5 completely obselete even before it comes out – as usual…
By Bill Pitts 2010-06-12 - 4:12:11
Hi Luke,
Isn’t it amazing how worked up some people will get over an issue?
And Maros, can you define what you mean when you say “Every big manafacturer”?
Thanks,
Bill
By Mark 2010-07-05 - 2:11:35
@Maros
“HTML, CSS, JS and any other scripting language can be done in NotePad – > What sort of company are you running ? I guess not very succesful if you force your developers into using notepad for professional development. I wonder how you`d cope with 10 000 lines of code in that kind of environment.”
When Luke said that you can do those languages in Notepad, I think the point was that you can edit the files in pretty much any editing program you want, even if you refuse to download a proper IDE. As for thousands of lines of code, I imagine that’s why people separate their code into multiple files and organize it such that they don’t have to deal with it all at once.
“do you think 600 pounds is a lot of money for a company that makes milions ?”
I think that a company small enough to have only one developer is not likely to be making that much money.
“Every big manafacturer has annouced full support for Flash in the future”
I have never owned an Apple product in my life and haven’t had TV for years, but I consider Apple to be a major manufacturer. Where exactly did they announce their plans for full Flash support?
“Flash is proprietary -> thank God ! At least I know what I am paying for and it gets updated 50 x faster than HTML ( every 10 years ? ) which does not work consistently across browsers anyway – right ?”
If HTML gets updated every 10 years and is currently on version 5, wouldn’t that mean it came out in 1960? At least the Internet standards and specifications don’t need constant security patching….
As for working consistently, last I checked more browsers support HTML in some form or another than support Flash. For example, could you please name a single platform that has support for Flash, but not HTML?
“IE 6 is still powerful even after 9 years. That enables Adobe to make HTML5 completely obselete even before it comes out – as usual…”
Do you seriously believe that people who won’t even update their OS’s built-in browser through the automatic built-in OS update feature will keep up-to-date with third-party plugins? By the time Win2k and XP die out and take IE6 with them, most people will be using either later versions of Windows which push IE updates even harder than XP or they’ll be using other OS’s where Flash isn’t as well-supported as HTML5, etc. Either way, if you want your Internet-based content to be readily-accessible to the masses, it’s best to use the open standards that have worked and will continue to work in places that Flash doesn’t.
By Maros 2010-07-05 - 15:06:26
Mark,
You sound like Luke`s lawyer.. I got his point on using Notepad for “efficient” code editing. Seriously tell me how you would deal with a huge chunk of code in Notepad.. in any case, good luck with it.
Next, I don`t seriously believe that IE6 should be taken into account when developing a new site but I seriously know that… at the end of the day, do what clients ask for…
Mark, you are so childish by making a reference to Apple blocking Flash from devices….. Have you ever heard of Nokia ? how about Google ? Why dont you do a bit of research prior to making silly comments ?
I feel like I am wasting my time with you, people.. Keep on saying the things you dont even believe in… Keep on spreading a bunch of lies across the net.. Serious developers would never contemplate killing a technology ! let`s go back to the world of monopoly. only one way of developing… how exciting for all of us ! I wonder what lies you`ll be producing then… let`s wait and see how far you are willing to go for some extra traffic.
By Mark 2010-07-09 - 19:34:36
@Maros
“You sound like Luke`s lawyer.”
* What relevance does that ad hominem attack have to the merits (or lack thereof) of Flash? I’m just a user of the Internet who’s really annoyed by sites that require bloated and slow plugins when simple and fast HTML could have done presented the exact same content with even less effort from the developers. Sure that biases me against Flash, but my arguments stand on their own and should be attacked directly instead of attacking the one who made them. Anyway, since you made a personal attack, I’m going to give the rest of your post extra scrutiny.
“I got his point on using Notepad for “efficient” code editing. Seriously tell me how you would deal with a huge chunk of code in Notepad.. in any case, good luck with it.”
* I just did a Ctrl+F on this page and you misquoting Luke is the first use of the word “efficient” in this discussion. He never said it was efficient. He just said that it was possible, sort of like how it’s possible to write C/C++/Java/C#/VB code in Notepad, even if most people use IDEs. Personally, if I had to use a text editor for my coding I would use Kate or Notepad++ (depending on which OS I’m on at the time) which at least have syntax highlighting and allow users to click-drag-move selected text. As for proper IDEs, I would probably try Eclipse with whatever HTML/JS/CSS language plugins it has.
“Next, I don`t seriously believe that IE6 should be taken into account when developing a new site
* You said earlier that “IE 6 holds over 16 % of the browser market” which means that you’re now stating that you believe that “over 16%” of the browsing market” should be ignored. What business ignores over 16% of their market?
“but I seriously know that… at the end of the day, do what clients ask for…”
* If by “client” you mean user, then you should do what this user is asking for and make your site’s content accessible to those who do not like being forced to use resource-hungry plugins. I like being able to have more than two sites open at once.
“Mark, you are so childish by making a reference to Apple blocking Flash from devices….. Have you ever heard of Nokia ? how about Google ?”
* You said that “Every big manafacturer has annouced full support for Flash in the future.” Even if MOST big manufacturers have, all I needed to refute your broad claim was a single counterexample, which Apple happens to be. Last I checked, 40-something billion dollars annual revenue counted as big.
“Why dont you do a bit of research prior to making silly comments ?”
* Do you want me to cite sources for all my claims? While I am not writing at an academic level of rigor and I am not omniscient in this matter, I am being careful to qualify my claims and to avoid making overly-broad statements. I haven’t seen any research in your comments either, unless you count that one link to an all-Flash site that has nothing for users without the plugin.
“I feel like I am wasting my time with you, people..”
* In case it makes you feel any better, I think I’ve wasted more time on this discussion than you have.
“Keep on saying the things you dont even believe in…”
* What have I said that I don’t believe? I believe that Flash is nothing more than an annoyance (mostly animated ads) in the majority of its uses. I believe what I say and I say what I believe.
“Keep on spreading a bunch of lies across the net..”
* Could you please quote a single sentence where I have lied in this discussion?
“Serious developers would never contemplate killing a technology !”
* I am not saying that Flash should be killed. In fact, in some cases (video, games, experimental interface prototypes, etc) it’s the best tool for the job. However, it has no place in most sites where the actual content is just text and maybe a few images. If the only thing a site’s fancy animations and special effects add to the site is eye candy and it slows down the content too much, I am likely to leave that site. If I want pointless eye candy, I’ll watch one of my 3D screensavers.
“let`s go back to the world of monopoly. only one way of developing… how exciting for all of us !”
* Last I checked, you’re the one who was advocating using a single proprietary product (Flash) for development. With Flash, you have to get the development environment and the player from a single source (Adobe). When you have only one choice of provider, that’s a monopoly. As for the open standards, one can develop HTML/JS/CSS in several environments; Visual Studio, Eclipse, and even Notepad all work. To play/access the content you need a browser, of which there are also several; Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, Safari, and several other browsers all handle these standards.
“I wonder what lies you`ll be producing then…”
* I’ll probably be about as honest then as I am being now.
“let`s wait and see how far you are willing to go for some extra traffic.”
* Since when was I after “extra traffic”? Unlike you, I have not included the URL for my personal website in any of my comments. In fact, the only site I have linked to so far is http://webtips.dan.info/graceful.html which I have no sort of affiliation with. I just thought that a page on how to make use of fancy new stuff without annoying users of older browsers would be useful for people who insist on complicating everything by using Flash where it isn’t needed. If people would just follow a few simple guidelines on technological accessibility of content, then we wouldn’t be having these sorts of arguments in the first place.
To summarize all my posts in this discussion:
* In most (not all) cases, Flash only adds resource-intensive eye candy.
* Graceful degradation helps, but standards-based development is better.
* Regardless of a developer’s excuses, unneeded Flash annoys users.
By Bill Pitts 2010-07-10 - 19:30:50
@Mark
Your comments are like a breath of fresh air, seriously.
I use a 10-year-old computer as I can’t afford to upgrade and am, in the vast majority of cases, unable to view Flash sites. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that I’m not alone in this category of computer users either.
Your analysis of the situation is therefore very welcome to me in that it supports my feelings about Flash and its hoggishness if not properly used. And yes, I have seen, and been pleasantly surprised by, a few sites where the developer actually knew how to implement Flash. It can happen. But most of the time, the misuse of Flash chases me away.
In my opinion, Adobe needs to either trash Flash (heh) or streamline it to where it can’t be misused by developers who obviously don’t know what they’re doing. The world COULD be a better place.
And I don’t think I’ve spread any lies here.
Bill
By Chris Goward 2010-07-11 - 16:31:22
This is still a good post, Sean.
There’s also a great debate happening on the merits of Flash site design here:
http://bit.ly/Flashornot
By Maros 2010-07-12 - 15:25:55
Bill,
I have recently ditched my 7 years old computer that served me really well. Fortunately it was not a mac and it handled pretty much everything, even heavy duty sites. Nevertheless, It was time for me to move on and it would be childish of me to expect the latest technology to cater for something so slow .
let`s be honest with each other, your knowledge is outdated as much as YOUR COMPUTER. upgrade it and move on !
most importantly, the web COULD BE a better place if you took your ugly ( HTML) site off and replace it with something that looks reasonable. You know where to look for motivation, right ? FLASH DESIGNERS ! HTML designers have stolen everything from us ! ( slideshows, accordions, almost everything ). name at least one thing you html scanners have come up with… none … face it…
furthermore, if your site is to set a tone for our future in terms of web development, then we are all doomed…
Peace
Maros
By Bill Pitts 2010-07-12 - 16:55:32
@Maros
Personal attacks have no place in a forum such as this. Please focus on the issue.
By borisbouma 2010-07-13 - 2:29:53
As a relative novice to web standards as related to Flash I stumbled on this forum in search of a reason why to bother with validating my sites.
Many of the issues brought up in this article have been solved (deep linking / swf address, selectable text, download times / xml based flash etc etc).
It seems to me that this is mostly a debate about taste. Arguing principle vs personality. When you take the time to look at the posters’ work, it becomes evident that there is a resentment among old school coders (who’s sites are clean coded, yet visually bland, and not very concerned with UX ) toward graphic design oriented web designers.
IMO, there is a place for both sides, content rich sites that load in 2 seconds, rank high and are visible on 10 year old computers, and stunning user experiences made in Flash that load a little slower and can’t be seen everywhere.
Why does this have to turn into such a contentious debate?
By Mark 2010-07-13 - 10:00:51
@borisbouma
“Many of the issues brought up in this article have been solved (deep linking / swf address, selectable text, download times / xml based flash etc etc).”
Since you claim these issues have been solved, your site should work just as well in these areas as a normal HTML site. However, this is not the case.
* Deep linking – The URL doesn’t when I click stuff.
* Selectable text – This works only partially. Example: the left area of your “about me” section is selectable, but the “CREDITS” section on the right isn’t.
* Download times – The only ways to decrease download times are to decrease the amount of data sent and to increase how fast the data is sent. Since my ISP is slow, the only way for you to make your site download quicker is to reduce the amount of data that’s sent. Currently, it uses about 1.8 MB, which takes 20 seconds with my Internet connection. For comparison, google.com takes 2 seconds and Gmail (arguably full of much more content than your site) takes 5 seconds.
* Searchability – Google cannot tell which page out of the only one available contains your contact info. See http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=contact+site:borisbouma.com .
* Overall speed after loading – It takes 11 seconds after the page has been downloaded before the opening animations are over. Your quickest-loading section, (“contact”) takes 4 seconds. One instance of your site brings my computer to a crawl. Dozens of Google pages at once have no noticeable impart of the computer’s performance.
If a Flash advocate who claims most of Flash’s problems have been solved can’t even get his own Flash-based site to work close to as well as HTML, I don’t think Flash is yet ready for the less-experienced masses who just want their sites to work.
“It seems to me that this is mostly a debate about taste. Arguing principle vs personality.”
Slow eye candy vs quick content? The only principle behind my arguments in this post is my own convenience when accessing a site. Trying to use a Flash-based site is like trying to use MS Word with that #@^& paperclip; it’s amusing the first few times, but the novelty wears off fast.
“When you take the time to look at the posters’ work, it becomes evident that there is a resentment among old school coders (who’s sites are clean coded, yet visually bland, and not very concerned with UX ) toward graphic design oriented web designers.”
Bland works. Irrelevant and resource-intensive eye candy doesn’t. As a user, I browse the Internet for content, and I don’t want anything to get in the way of the content.
If you need proof of how effective blandness is, please go to Google and notice how much eye candy you don’t see.
“IMO, there is a place for both sides, content rich sites that load in 2 seconds, rank high and are visible on 10 year old computers, and stunning user experiences made in Flash that load a little slower and can’t be seen everywhere.”
If I didn’t have such terrible latency from being stuck with a satellite Internet connection, Google would load in less than 0.2 seconds, but the Flash sites would still be nearly as slow. So far, I have yet to see anyone here mention a Flash site with a more stunning experience than Google.
“Why does this have to turn into such a contentious debate?”
For people like me, the alternative to debating this is to ignore all Flash-based sites without giving their owners a clue as to what’s wrong. Personally, I prefer to point out these sorts of problems instead of ignoring them.
By Bill Pitts 2010-07-13 - 18:04:30
AND, once again, there are a few of us who CANNOT afford to buy new computers. I would love to upgrade but I can’t. Maybe one day soon. This economy has been hard on freelancers.
Recently, a friend of mine bought a HP G62 with my help (GASP – remember, I’m a Mac user!) and whenever I see her, I try to finagle time on it just so I can enjoy the speed of its processor! So there.
I would like to state here, though, that I have absolutely NO resentment toward graphic design oriented web designers, ’cause I’m one, too.
(Note to Mark: Please drop me an email through my website as I would like to see YOUR website. Thanks.)
By Maros 2010-07-13 - 18:32:26
Bill,
I dont feel like I have attacked you on a personal level. What I am trying to say is that your computer should be disposed of asap and replaced with a PC that eats Flash sites for breakfast..
and most importantly, You are aware of the fact that mac`s are just so bad at dealing with Flash, so why argue at all ?? I dont get it… get a pc and enjoy the web in its full potential, that is my professional advice..
Peace
Maros
By Mark 2010-07-13 - 23:42:19
@Bill
I am not a web designer. The closest thing I have to a website is a rough outline of an opening page on Google Sites.
@Maros
“mac`s are just so bad at dealing with Flash” [sic]
If my Macs, you mean OS X, the problems you reference are most likely an issue with Flash itself not being portable enough. If it works better on Windows on the same machine, then it’s probably Adobe’s fault for not supporting other OS’s as well. However, based on Flash running equally slowly on this computer when I’m in Windows or Linux, it might be that Apple doesn’t let the updates get to their users in a timely enough manner, sort of like the issues with Java on OS X.
Anyway, could someone please link to an example of a good Flash-based site that uses less than 25% of a CPU core’s power? That amount is still over 25 times the resource use of an HTML page, but it would be way more acceptable than the current situation. If web developers could make Flash run smoothly and quickly, I bet most of the users’ complaints would stop. I know I would stop complaining about it if it wasn’t several orders of magnitude more resource-hungry than HTML for the same content.
By borisbouma 2010-07-14 - 6:44:08
@Mark
“Bland works”
Sure, if you’re designing the phone book. You’re suggesting that bland should be the norm. Good luck with that.
Comparing download times between a portfolio site and google, is like knocking a Ferrari for it’s gas mileage.
“Since you claim these issues have been solved, your site should work just as well in these areas as a normal HTML site.”
Wrong. I have no need for deep linking on my site. There\’s a navigation bar for a reason. SWF address is useful for measuring what parts of the sites are getting the most traffic. I have no use for it on my portfolio. People that visit my site see what I want them to see. And most of them don’t really give a hoot about W3C validation.
As far as search engine visibility, It feels great that my content is sincere, not just spiderfood. I have no desire to contribute to the ever swelling pile of bloated keyword garbage. I am content with meta tags.
Additionally, I think it is AWESOME that Flash prevents my my contact info from being harvested by spambots!
@Bill
Try buying a used mac. They are durable unlike most pc’s. I got a macbook pro with tos of ram for a grand off craigslist and it’s lasted me for 7 years
By Christian 2010-07-14 - 7:10:32
Even though I’m sure I will be torn in half by leaving a comment here, I like to throw in some examples. I have to say that I’m completely in love with flash, but at the same time agree with most of the issues discussed here about SEO etc. That’s why I have created my own framework FLEB (http://www.flebframework.com), which addresses these issues. Please have a look at this full flash demo site: http://www.turbohomepage.ch
Every page can be deeplinked, e.g. http://www.turbohomepage.ch/en/features/gallery-videos/
Also be sure to disable JavaScript, to see what searchengines get.
The point is: In Flash, you are free to do whatever you like, anything is possible (that’s why I love it), it just depends on the Designer/Developer, how far he will go.
By Frankie 2011-10-01 - 10:05:30
Awesome! Thanks!
Great stuff.
By Bill Pitts 2010-07-14 - 17:24:40
Hi Christian,
Count on it — some will make a feeble attempt to tear you in half, but it doesn’t amount to much, if anything.
This discussion on the pros and cons of Flash reminds me of the half-witted arguments as to which local college is better, or which side of town, or which religion. In the end, they’re best to avoid. They’re great fun to read or listen to, but a pain in the butt to get caught up in.
By Frankie 2011-10-01 - 10:08:11
-__- It’s 4 am and I’m not done reading yet!
This conversation is intense and I’m loving every post.
IT is interesting because I love what flash can do,
BUT
I love xhtml’s simple beauty and accessibility. I’m a graphic designer and do some web as well, but when it comes to accessibility I go for w3c standards, and if I miss something it is because I don’t know it yet. The design aspect is secondary…
By Bill Pitts 2010-07-15 - 2:50:33
It just occurred to me that no one has brought up the subject of content yet.
By Mark 2010-07-17 - 8:01:53
@borisbouma
“You’re suggesting that bland should be the norm. Good luck with that.”
While I did give that impression, I did not mean to say that everything must be bland. What I meant was that nearly all eye candy I’ve come across has done nothing to make things easier to use. Perhaps a better way of phrasing my opinion would be “Don’t obfuscate content with fancy presentation.”
“Comparing download times between a portfolio site and google, is like knocking a Ferrari for it’s gas mileage.”
The analogy breaks because the car is more like the user’s browser than your site. Your site is their browser’s/car’s destination. The complaint is that accessing the Flash-based portfolio site is like driving through a fancily decorated and artsy obstacle course to reach some important guy’s office.
““Since you claim these issues have been solved, your site should work just as well in these areas as a normal HTML site.”
Wrong. I have no need for deep linking on my site. There\’s a navigation bar for a reason. SWF address is useful for measuring what parts of the sites are getting the most traffic. I have no use for it on my portfolio.”
If the issues were truly solved, you wouldn’t have to go through any extra effort to make it work as well as HTML.
“People that visit my site see what I want them to see.”
It’s not just what you want users to see, but how quickly you want them to be able to see it.
“And most of them don’t really give a hoot about W3C validation.”
Users only care about the problems they see, but is it really that hard to fix the less-visible errors? If someone can’t even get a declarative language like XHTML to validate, may God help them if they ever try writing code in a language that needs to be compiled, but that’s getting off-topic.
“As far as search engine visibility, It feels great that my content is sincere, not just spiderfood. I have no desire to contribute to the ever swelling pile of bloated keyword garbage. I am content with meta tags.”
Google’s done a pretty good job optimizing their page-ranking algorithms to detect sincere content and avoid “spiderfood” and “keyword garbage”. Unfortunately, unless you add pretty much everything related to your site to the meta tags, Google is going to have problems finding the sincere content.
“Additionally, I think it is AWESOME that Flash prevents my my contact info from being harvested by spambots!”
While that will stop the simpler bots, there are much less resource-intensive methods of obscuring email addresses. Here are a few ways:
* Describe the address instead of listing it directly. Ex: “bob thiswebsitesdomain”. This also stops most half-literate idiots from messaging you.
* Put it in an image. Distort the image if you’re afraid of OCR.
* Use JavaScript to build the address.
Regardless of how you obscure your email address, it’s still accessible to spammers. For example, they could break into the email account of someone who has your address in their address book and then harvest your address from there. They could also have a human read it.
@Christian
“Please have a look at this full flash demo site: http://www.turbohomepage.ch”
That is by far the most navigable Flash site I have yet to see. However, it still uses up about 50% of my computer’s CPU power, though that’s probably Adobe’s fault and not yours. Anyway, the site seems to more-or-less reproduce the look and feel of a well-done traditional HTML site, which I find ironic when I consider how earlier Maros was talking about HTML taking forever to do the same as Flash. Based on the quality of other Flash sites, I guess reimplementing HTML-like behavior in Flash is at least as hard as doing Flash-like stuff in HTML!
“The point is: In Flash, you are free to do whatever you like, anything is possible (that’s why I love it), it just depends on the Designer/Developer, how far he will go.”
Yes, you can do anything in Flash, but as far as I can tell, the same can be said of JavaScript and HTML. For example, nearly everything at http://www.chromeexperiments.com/ feels like a Flash applet.
@Bill Pitts
“This discussion on the pros and cons of Flash reminds me of the half-witted arguments as to which local college is better, or which side of town, or which religion. In the end, they’re best to avoid. They’re great fun to read or listen to, but a pain in the butt to get caught up in.”
Of course it’s best to avoid the half-witted arguments. However, some colleges simply are better than others, some sides of some towns are completely unsafe, and if you are wrong about God you are liable to eternal damnation. Even if most people argue poorly, the issues still matter.
“It just occurred to me that no one has brought up the subject of content yet.”
Now that you mention it, I’ll state my opinion on content and what technology should be used for what content. Text-based and image-based content should be handled by HTML/JS – do not complicate it with slow plugins. Complex animations, fancy games, and stuff that needs more direct access to the computer should ideally be handled in HTML5/JS once it’s mature enough, but plugins are currently still needed for many uses.
By Maros 2010-07-17 - 9:48:05
Mark,
is anyone paying you to waste all your time arguing with others ? Why on earth would you want to force somebody to use what you think is best ? Who gives you the right to determine what is good and bad ?
In your comments, you reserve the right to speak on everyone`s behalf. You claim that Flash annoys a user. You are the only user that says that ( perhaps your friends as well ). There is a big difference between a FACT and OPINION.
Please don`t say to people what they should do. It is up to them do decide freely without having somebody manipulating their brains.
out of curiosity, why do these attacks come from HTML people only ? professional jealousy ? It also explains why some of you don`t have any work to do and cant afford to buy a new computer… because all you do is argue while Flash developers are hard at work creating mind-blowing things.
now, in response to some of your points.
You do know well why Flash does not work OK on a mac. Apple is set to destroy the technology because it is really powerful and having control over MEDIA applications guarantees you a lot of success, Adobe is the king and they do everything they can to maintain their dominance. Microsoft and Adobe have worked closely together to optimize the Flash performance on windows. Apple has closed the door and poor Adobe is reduced to assuming what might work in an efficient manner.
next, you mention CONTENT. How do you define content ? 10 000 lines of text ? the latest research shows the people DONT LIKE to read anymore. Visual content ( images -> worth a thousand words / sound / interactive animations ) is the future and so is 3D. It is 2010 ( set your clock right ) and HTML5 is now getting an ability to play a SIMPLE VIDEO which is not still not standardized and is to be finalized in 2022 ! ( W3C – > it is their official statement ).
mark, one more thing. There is more than one way to skin the cat. Please dont preach, dont manipulate, dont tell people what to do. Let us, let everybody choose what they like and are comfortable with. If a powerful technology of any kind is under attack simply because someone feels unable to identify themselves with the world of creativity, I shall have my say, not to be silly but to defend the future of web as such and I am a jQuery developer as well ! that shows how objective we, Flash developers are.. I eat HTML, CSS for breakfast….
Peace
Maros
By Mark 2010-07-19 - 0:57:20
@Maros
Once more I will reply to virtually every bit of your post, showing that I have read and understood it all, but it is getting tiresome having to repeat the same arguments over and over while you keep avoiding/ignoring most of my arguments and making even more personal attacks. It would also be nice if you would pay a bit more attention to capitalization, but minor grammatical errors are irrelevant to the arguments.
“is anyone paying you to waste all your time arguing with others ?”
No, but I could ask the same of you, since you seem to have a financial interest in people upgrading their computers just so they can look at Flash-based sites you made.
“Why on earth would you want to force somebody to use what you think is best ?”
I’m not forcing them to do anything if they don’t care about me ignoring their sites.
“Who gives you the right to determine what is good and bad ?”
Who gives you the right to determine if my comments are good or bad? Who gives anyone that right? The closest we can do online is to assume we all have that right and state our opinions on what is good or bad. If we disagree, we discuss it.
“In your comments, you reserve the right to speak on everyone`s behalf.”
Could you please post an exact quote where I did that?
“You claim that Flash annoys a user.”
As far as I know Flash is the only browser plugin that has browser extension dedicated to blocking it. If it is not annoying to users, then how do you explain why there are over a million active daily users of the Flashblock plugin on Firefox? (source: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/statistics/addon/433 )
“You are the only user that says that ( perhaps your friends as well ).”
Apparently I have over a million friends. I must be the most popular person in the world. (installing Flashblock speaks louder against Flash than mere words)
“There is a big difference between a FACT and OPINION.”
Fact: Flash is orders of magnitude more resource-hungry than HTML for the same content.
Fact: Everyone that can access Flash can access HTML at least as easily.
Fact: HTML gets the content to the user quicker.
Opinion: Developers expressing themselves more artistically in Flash is worth the extra resource use for the users.
“Please don`t say to people what they should do. It is up to them do decide freely without having somebody manipulating their brains.”
You’re telling me what not to do by telling me not to tell others what not to do. They are free to use Flash exclusively and I am free to complain about Flash.
“out of curiosity, why do these attacks come from HTML people only ?”
You’re seriously asking why people who prefer HTML don’t want Flash everywhere? I’m not sure about the others, but I think the main reason is because we prefer websites that work everywhere and don’t eat CPU and RAM for breakfast.
“professional jealousy ?”
Personally, I have absolutely no interest in making websites for a living. The only major web-based thing I can imagine myself doing is porting a desktop-based program to Google’s “Native Client” system, but that’s not for another couple of years at least….
“It also explains why some of you don`t have any work to do and cant afford to buy a new computer… because all you do is argue while Flash developers are hard at work creating mind-blowing things.”
I cannot afford a new computer because I am using that money for college. I think that an education is worth more than seeing fancy graphics that obfuscate text-based content. Participating in discussions like this leads me to a greater understanding of the computer industry which I plan to work in and sharpens my communication skills.
“You do know well why Flash does not work OK on a mac. Apple is set to destroy the technology because it is really powerful and having control over MEDIA applications guarantees you a lot of success,”
You what’s really powerful? The C family of languages, and also assembly. Quake was released 14 years ago in 1996 and there is still nothing comparable in Flash, even though Flash has much greater system requirements. Flash is not powerful. It’s still catching up from the 90s.
“Adobe is the king and they do everything they can to maintain their dominance.”
Sounds familiar. Isn’t that what Microsoft tried doing with their browser? Monopoly-level dominance does not lead to innovation.
“Microsoft and Adobe have worked closely together to optimize the Flash performance on windows.”
If that is the case, then why does Flash run just as slowly on Windows as on Linux (on the same computer)?
“Apple has closed the door and poor Adobe is reduced to assuming what might work in an efficient manner.”
Instead of assuming, they could just test before releasing. Also, it is possible to release a program on your website instead of having to integrate it with the OS’s default available software list.
“next, you mention CONTENT. How do you define content ?”
I define content as whatever it is the website is trying to tell or show the user.
“10 000 lines of text ?”
Didn’t you read the part where I mentioned images, complex animations, and fancy games? Assuming each page of a printed book contains a generous 50 lines of text, that would be a 200-page book. I would love to see your example of such a site.
“the latest research shows the people DONT LIKE to read anymore.”
That would explain why you seem to have just read the word “content” and skipped the rest of the paragraph.
“Visual content ( images -> worth a thousand words / sound / interactive animations ) is the future”
If visual content can replace text, then why are we still literate? We’ve had video with sound since before most of us were born. If it was going to replace text, it would have done so by now.
“and so is 3D.”
3D video isn’t that much more expensive than 2D, but it hasn’t been a disruptive technology. 3D just doesn’t add that much in most cases.
“It is 2010 ( set your clock right )”
I would love to have flying cars and such become ubiquitous within 5 years, but technological predictions have been wrong. As for the Internet, only 78% of Americans have access and only 83% those have broadband. (source: http://www.pewinternet.org/Commentary/2010/February/FCC-Broadband-Adoption-and-Use-in-America.aspx )
“HTML5 is now getting an ability to play a SIMPLE VIDEO which is not still not standardized and is to be finalized in 2022 ! ( W3C – > it is their official statement ).”
HTML5 will be a “W3C recommendation” when there are at least “two 100% complete and fully interoperable implementations” based on 20,000+ tests. (source: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#When_will_HTML5_be_finished.3F ) You should wait for Flash to meet similar standards before making that complaint about HTML5.
“There is more than one way to skin the cat.”
True, but using a sledgehammer is still a bad idea.
“Please dont preach, dont manipulate, dont tell people what to do.”
Need I list the times you have done exactly what you just told me not to?
“Let us, let everybody choose what they like and are comfortable with.”
I am letting you choose whatever you want. However, as I said earlier in this comment, I have the right to avoid sites that don’t meet my personal standards.
“If a powerful technology of any kind is under attack simply because someone feels unable to identify themselves with the world of creativity, I shall have my say, not to be silly but to defend the future of web as such”
How much creativity is involved in yet another sluggish Flash site? True creativity is when you do something novel, not making yet another variation on a theme.
“and I am a jQuery developer as well ! that shows how objective we, Flash developers are..”
I don’t care if you’re leading HTML5 development. Your resume is irrelevant to your arguments.
“I eat HTML, CSS for breakfast….”
So does virtually every browser, but Flash is still an issue for many.
By Maros 2010-07-19 - 12:58:57
Mark,
1. you claim to be a student. so am I and as a student You are meant to be studying and exploring things you know nothing about. You choose to limit yourself to a particular presentation layer which in principle delivers the same content. If you are seriously after content which is something you highly speak of, then I suggest that you back up your statements by showing willingness to spend extra 5 seconds waiting for a website to load. It is what you wait for, not how long, that matters. I hope you agree with me on that.
2. You stated that you DON`T make websites for living. I DO and that has been paying for my living expenses in London. so We have two completely different entities, a web developer and you being extremely keen on getting your point across. In your first year, you should have been educated on the subject of professionalism -> if you don`t have any practical experience of using a particular technology, please do avoid expressing your opinion on it. That is how it works in the UK and I believe the same goes for United States.
3. Flash is not powerful…. It is your opinion only. Fail! It is you who controls it and stay the course, It is between HTML and Flash. You have not seen me make references to .NET or other frameworks..
4. I have coded and actively coding in BOTH, html and flash on a daily basis… You don`t care ? I guess you should. Why bother going to University if you think you know everything ?
5. 3D – > everything around you is 3D, so it becomes natural to have a medium that mimics and presents information in the way we are most familiar with. It really comes to your personal preferences but for me, 3D websites are just the way to go. STREET VIEW offered by GOOGLE ! Flash ?? You are avoiding that, right ? ehh.. go slap yourself…
6. Mark, one more thing. a single Flash website can produce me 600 pounds… Wouldn`t that help your studies If you were a little bit more open minded ? My brand-new, shiny, lovely Dell XPS studio says yes
) and it only took 2 flash websites to get it….
http://www.karmaview.com
http://www.positiveinpact.com
peace
Maros
p.s.: i have to go now, another shiny flash website is waiting to be created
) -> will give me an opportunity to upgrade my laptop to 6GB ram 
)
By Mark 2010-07-23 - 2:49:42
“1. you claim to be a student. so am I and as a student You are meant to be studying and exploring things you know nothing about.”
That should be the primary goal, but today’s society forces me to place my degree first. However, I do have some free time which I use some of to explore new things and talk about things like Flash which I do not have the means to explore directly.
“You choose to limit yourself to a particular presentation layer which in principle delivers the same content. If you are seriously after content which is something you highly speak of, then I suggest that you back up your statements by showing willingness to spend extra 5 seconds waiting for a website to load.”
With the poor-quality Internet connection I’m stuck with here, many normal text-based sites take 5 seconds to load and Flash sites take more like 15 seconds. During that time, I can use quick-loading Google to find an alternative site that has the same content only in the form I prefer.
“It is what you wait for, not how long, that matters. I hope you agree with me on that.”
If the content is a natural fit for Flash instead of someone just wanting it to look fancier, it is usually worth the wait. Otherwise, why not just go elsewhere?
“2. You stated that you DON`T make websites for living. I DO and that has been paying for my living expenses in London. so We have two completely different entities, a web developer and you being extremely keen on getting your point across.”
“In your first year, you should have been educated on the subject of professionalism”
What I learned about professionalism can be summed up as “be polite, dress up, and pay attention to every little detail that another professional or the customer might possibly notice so that you don’t look sloppy”.
” -> if you don`t have any practical experience of using a particular technology, please do avoid expressing your opinion on it.”
Generalizing that argument, you also have no right to say anything about highly polluting power plants you haven’t operated, drugs you haven’t used, religions you’ve never followed, and movies you haven’t made. Clearly this is not the case and people express their opinions on things they have no personal experience with all the time, so I’ll assume that something having an impact on one’s life is sufficient grounds for having an opinion.
As for Flash, I did some simple animation with it in a high school Web Design course and I agree that it does make things easy, but if the content is not based on animation, a wiki is even easier to make stuff in. Also, I have made use of Flash-based web content several times in the past and much of the time it adds nothing to my experience as a user, which is why I say it is overused.
“That is how it works in the UK and I believe the same goes for United States.”
It seems that there is a huge difference here. Maybe the word means something different in the British and American dialects?
“3. Flash is not powerful…. It is your opinion only. Fail!”
I know of many definitions of “powerful” and in none of them is Flash better than C.
* In relation to finite state automata, “power” refers to the class of problems that can be solved by the machine. In this context, all “Turing Complete” languages are equally powerful. This means that Flash, JavaScript, C, and BASIC are equally powerful, since they’re all Turing Complete.
* In relation to how much can be done from a browser, Flash is about equal with JavaScript and the chunks of HTML5 that have been implemented. It’s also way less powerful than Java, which allows signed applets the same privileges as the logged-in user; file access, 3D acceleration, sending data over alternative IP ports, etc.
* In relation to performance, Flash is much less powerful than most compiled languages like C++. For example, my desktop environment (KDE) (which is programmed in C++) provides perfectly smooth rendering of several windows over multiple virtual desks, compositing, and plenty of translucency, shadowing, and other eye candy, all while using only about 5% of the CPU’s capacity. A simple 2D game (Micropolis) takes about 25% CPU when maximized to the monitor’s full 1920×1440 resolution (no it’s not high-end, but I suppose the CRT was high-end about 8 years ago when it was new). A simple Flash-based website when shrunk to about a quarter of the screen’s size takes around 40-80% CPU, depending on the site.
By all these objective tests, Flash is at best as powerful as competing technologies, but nowhere close to being more powerful. If you come up with another definition of “powerful” or choose another word (I suggest “expressive” – something where Flash actually does really well), we can discuss this further.
“4. I have coded and actively coding in BOTH, html and flash on a daily basis… You don`t care ?”
Your experience coding in each gives you the authority to state as a developer that Flash is easier to make sites in. However, as far as user-facing issues issues are concerned, you, me, and any random Internet user have more-or-less equal right to comment on what the end result of the developers’ choices has been.
“I guess you should. Why bother going to University if you think you know everything ?”
Not only do I not know everything, but I also know that I will never know anything.
“5. 3D – > everything around you is 3D, so it becomes natural to have a medium that mimics and presents information in the way we are most familiar with. It really comes to your personal preferences but for me, 3D websites are just the way to go.”
And yet I do not know of any full 3D Flash site or code library.
“STREET VIEW offered by GOOGLE ! Flash ?? You are avoiding that, right ?”
I’m pretty sure that’s all pre-rendered and what’s seen there is just scrolling through a giant panoramic image with scrolling that wraps around. That doesn’t count as 3D anymore than photos in Flash-free sites. The 3D I’m talking about is real-time rendering of arbitrary 3D objects, something that I have not seen in Flash, though I am open to the possibility that I just haven’t found it yet.
“ehh.. go slap yourself…”
Personal attacks have no place in this argument.
“6. Mark, one more thing. a single Flash website can produce me 600 pounds… Wouldn`t that help your studies If you were a little bit more open minded ? My brand-new, shiny, lovely Dell XPS studio says yes ) and it only took 2 flash websites to get it….”
Since the example sites you linked to look like their just visual rearrangements of basic content organization systems with perhaps a little bit of tweaking, I imagine that most of those sites take you less than a day to build. 600 pounds per day * 5 working days a week * 50 working weeks a year = 150,000 pounds per year. I find it hard to believe that someone who makes money that quickly would be bragging about a 1,200 pound purchase.
“http://www.karmaview.com”
When I viewed that site without Flash, I found a simple CMS for photos with basic categorization. It does look fairly well-polished for its lack of substantial content (there are plenty of places to find photos of random stuff). When I enabled Flash and reloaded the site, I saw more-or-less the same thing, just with a different layout and black background. I’m surprised someone paid 600 pounds for what looks like a basic general-use simple photo-displaying CMS.
“http://www.positiveinpact.com”
With Flash disabled, it only showed the text “fdsfds” which should at least be replaced with a message about Flash being required. After enabling Flash and reloading it, I was greatly annoyed to find that it was wasting tons of bandwidth downloading background music. One or two tunes would have been acceptable, but pre-loading 13 different songs is excessive.
Nothing should have so much eye candy that the main feature is ignored.
“p.s.: i have to go now, another shiny flash website is waiting to be created ) -> will give me an opportunity to upgrade my laptop to 6GB ram )”
I believe there’s a P. T. Barnum quote somewhere about your customers….
By Janther 2010-07-31 - 2:29:18
@Mark
here is a website that uses quite beatifully the usage of 3D rendering in flash.
http://ecodazoo.com/
just to inform you that there are quite a few libraries that implement this feature.
i hope it doesnt take much of your time and cpu.
By Me 2010-08-13 - 12:21:09
Thanks to all those developers, who wrote “Flash-Block” type of add-ins/plug-ins !
I never ever see these annoying flash shits on any site. If (and only IF) I’m interested, would click on “Show this shitty flash” button. All (I mean ALL) browsers must (I mean MUST) have such feature turned on BY DEFAULT – “Don’t download and show any embeded objects in sites – just show placeholders with option to load them ON DEMAND” !
Thank you, Flash Developers.
By borisbouma 2010-08-13 - 17:44:44
hey “Me”
you sound like Borat, we will make flash free sites for your slow connection in Kazachstan OK buddy?
(*_*)
By Bill Pitts 2010-08-13 - 20:56:23
@boribouma,
Hey Boris,
You inadvertently brought up a very interesting point in all of this that I haven’t seen discussed yet.
What about third world countries? You know, an under-developed locale where a citizen has to work hard for a living, is finally able to buy a used computer, and hooks it up to the one available phone line in his village?
When was the last time any of you used a slow dial-up connection? Remember the type where you had to choose a good time to go online, when you were sure that you wouldn’t miss any phone calls? Or am I showing my age here?
Keep in mind that this scenario is still a possibility in some places on this ever-shrinking globe! And Flash would be an impossibility for someone in this position. Yet, a boring, old-fashioned, HTML-only, non-animated web site would give this citizen of our hypothetical isolated community an opportunity to become a citizen of the world!
And THERE is the final argument for building web sites that everyone can access! After all, we are using the WORLD-WIDE-Web. Never lose sight of this, please.
Good night, and good luck,
Bill
By borisbouma 2010-08-14 - 1:22:32
sure Bill, I see your point. I am not advocating an all flash internet.
Then again, when your clients are movie studios and record companies, why be concern with a part of the world that only pirates your work anyway?
By Stefan Brink 2010-09-15 - 16:08:52
Flash websites developed by programmers that know how to script and combine different techniques present a clean and fast html version for searchengines, visually disabled people and people with persistently slow connections. They can be updated using a flash cms, and there are many, and they show much more consistent across browsers than a lot of html websites. The latter being a very important reason for choosing flash when design and interface are important.
By Hans 2010-09-15 - 16:35:06
@Janther
Try to make that in html. Maybe it’s possible, but will the customer pay the difference in development time. I think it is unwise to put flash on the side. By the time html5 is completely supported by all browsers and internet users Flash will have evolved even further. 20% of all people still use an 8 year old browser! Do not forget that flash displays the same cross-browser. And for those who cannot view it and searchengines there is a optimized and fast html version available, when u have it built by a decent flash developer.
By Dave 2010-10-30 - 21:01:20
@Maros.
Not wanting to get into this slanging match, but on your http://www.karmaview.com site, I cannot use my scroll wheel to scroll up/down the site. Ubuntu+Firefox.
By Maros 2010-10-31 - 1:30:07
Dave,
no idea why that is… tested out on Windows ( all browsers ) and everything seems fine. Not sure about Mac… why not try Windows instead ? I have had less than 10 visits from linux platforms in 4 months ( google analytics), so it does not really matter that much, I guess…
By Julian 2010-12-11 - 9:21:43
sounds like another article written by someone who can programme in Flash correctly. HTML is easy to learn and make money in but Flash takes alot more time to correctly plan out but the results are far more contemporary than HTML. Even alot of HTML5 demos were created in FLash!!! I have seen some nice HTML5 Demos but it doesn’t have the creative potential that Flash does. However i do think HTML5 video is looking promising.
You can tell the author of this article doesn’t know how to programme correctly in Flash because over half his facts are wrong and for all you Flash coder out there here is a tool I found the other day that is amazing. Google (SWFaddress) It deeplinks flash files so you can search for the exact page / area within a flash document. It will take you to the Flash Document the automatically activate the buttons etc to take the user to the page.
By Blair 2010-12-28 - 1:58:23
I think I’m actually learning something!…
By Bryan Grezeszak 2011-01-01 - 20:34:47
All false.
1) Flash websites are perfectly crawlable to all search engines. Flash replaces a div of HTML content to show. That div should have the textual and link content of the page for search engines.
2) Every flash site I’ve made has full google analytics for page views AND for events like form contact, etc. It doesn’t add any complexity, in fact in the same reusable classes I use for switching pages I added a 3 line function that automatically does all tracking I need with zero effort involved…every flash site I make simply automatically has analytics for everything.
3) Every site I make has deeplinking (and works for usability, bookmarking, and seo) and backbutton capability. Flash design doesn’t break any usability, just DESIGN does, whether it’s html or flash. Design a good flash site and it’s usable, design a bad html one and it’s not.
4) Breaks cross platform? The flash plugin is the same plugin on all platforms, it has BETTER cross-platform rendering than html/css does. And so what if the user has an older flash version? They see the HTML version underneath, it’s called progressive enhancement. And using my analytics (yes, I have them on my flash site) I can tell you that 3 of the last 3000 visitors to my site didn’t have appropriate flash/flash version and saw the HTML version instead. That number also coincides to the number of iPhone hits I had in that timeframe (and yes, it works with iPhones, they see an iPhone optimized html/css site underneath.)
5) This is just a straight up lie. If you write the code in a valid way (duh.) then it passes validly, just like anything else…and there are valid methods for both html and javascript based embedding. Don’t believe me? Check my full flash agency’s website, it validates XHTML Strict zero errors zero warnings.
6) Yeah, some people disable flash. So they see the HTML/CSS site inside the div that flash would otherwise replace. That’s what progressive enhancement means, it’s there so that every sees what’s best for them to see, and if they choose to not see flash, I provide them with HTML like they want.
7) Flash can load straight text, XML, JSON, or any custom format you make and use that to have dynamic content. All of my flash sites are XML or database driven, just like all my HTML sites are. To be honest, if you’re editing raw HTML to do your updates then you’re farther behind than I am as far as dynamic content.
8) Flash doesn’t break search engine previews. The preview is of the HTML underneath. Many of the directories I submit sites to take screenshots. Strangely enough the static screenshot of the HTML looks just like a static screenshot of the flash site!
Don’t think that because you can operate the photoshop like toolbar in flash to make visuals that that means you know flash. Make sure someone that knows what they are doing makes your flash site and you’ll never regret it…because flash is capable of all the positive sides of html AND of flash if done right.
By John @ Rabbit Web 2011-03-23 - 12:24:19
When it comes to computers and programming languages, my theory is that you should use what everyone else is using. Particularly those who are successful at what they are doing.
Simple truth is that the large majority of websites are build in html/css. There is obviously good reason for this. You can argue ad nausium as much as you like the merits of each technology, but all that matters in the end is what is popular and what is used.
HTML/CSS is the clear winner here for the majority of sites. There are off course edge cases where flash/silverlight are more successful.
By stringZ 2011-05-24 - 1:28:06
Somthing is missing: flash is a BLOATWARE eats up all the system resources on a computer that is not high-end. Also its IDE is a curse of hell, sometimes a project get corrupted during saving and it means your hours of work is completely destroyed.
Take look at this:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/642378
There is also a crash when opening and it is still not fixed. Boycott Flash!
By Brig 2012-06-11 - 6:47:38
Ok, so there seems to be mixed opinions here but the main thing I’m trying to find out is what’s the general thing people do so that iPhone and iPad users can view Flash based items or better still, what do they do to avoid not being able to view Flash based items on iPhones and iPads? Is html and jQuery the best? i.e. for web galleries within a site and being able to see movies that are uploaded onto a site that are too long for YouTube embedding …
By jared 2012-09-07 - 1:56:00
One of the biggest problems today with building your site with flash is that more browsers are no longer supporting it.
By Blood spatter expert 2012-10-31 - 10:54:16
Flash deters a website from scoring well on the SEO charts. The best way is to adopt HTML 5.
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Mary Lawson
By CalvinTurner 2012-12-28 - 11:52:27
You do know well why Flash does not work OK on a mac. Apple is set to destroy the technology because it is really powerful and having control over MEDIA applications guarantees you a lot of success,
By Stacey Devine 2013-03-26 - 13:06:07
Yes you are right I also face these problems when i was a amateur . This article will help amateur.
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By Priya 2013-06-15 - 9:36:56
I am happy that there are so many people you realize flash is not for designing a whole website. Everyone should accept the fact that it is not easy to update a flash website like a html website. Farmvillie works very good in Chrome where as it never worked in Firefox. This explains the browser issues with various flash versions. Flash is best suited for creating applications, games and not for whole website. If I see a flash website loading more than 30 secs, I just quit. These problems are not with html. So, everybody boycott flash websites. Thanks in advance.